We’re back again to unpack the budget with Quilter’s Roddy Munro and their new Pension Crystallisation tool

Transcript

Bella Caridade-Ferreira

Hello everyone, and welcome to Compare the Platform’s Cut Through the Noise podcast, bringing new content that matters to you advisers. So, this time round, we have with us Roddy Munro, who is head of technical sales for Quilter. And you may remember that this time last year, after the 2024 autumn budget, Roddy was with us and talked through all the impact of changes to lifetime allowance, et cetera, et cetera. And Roddy, I think it’s fair to say that you have been obsessed with pensions and tax ever since then, really. And this is a sort of a project you’ve been working on for more than a year and is very close to your heart. Am I right?

Roddy Munro

Yes, morning, Bella. Nice to speak to you again. I think that’s absolutely right. Since the announcement back in, goodness, gosh, it seems like a lifetime ago, but it was only just over a year ago, the 30th of October budget, 2024 that pensions were falling into scope for inheritance tax. I’ve probably done nothing else professionally other than look at the impact of all this and sit in a dark room to work it all out and then consider what are the best ways that advisers can think about potentially mitigating some of this for clients and their families. So yes, it’s been a busy 12 months.

Bella Caridade-Ferreira

It has indeed been a really busy 12 months and obviously the recent budget has added to that. Talk me through what are the key macro problems that we have to deal with.

Roddy Munro

Yeah, I think the first thing to acknowledge here is bringing pensions into scope for IHT will not really affect the majority of savers and pension schemes, but it’s certainly going to cut right into the heart of those who are able to afford advice and equally those who are not getting any advice because this will cut into middle Britain and for those folk who have saved not just into pensions but into all sorts of other savings vehicles and have assets. And in its simplest form, Bella, I remember putting a press release out into the market in the summer, the 21st of July, when we had one of the latest updates back then from HMRC. And I’ll kind of repeat what I said back then now, if that would help. I said that bringing unused pensions into the ambit of inheritance tax is more than a technical footnote change from the Treasury. This is a seismic shift, and we have to create a seismic shift in how we think and now plan for retirement and estate planning. Otherwise, we potentially see a massive transfer of client wealth back to the state. And when we start to think through what’s going on within government policy here, government tax policy to raise coppers, they are firmly aiming this policy at two generational types, typically the baby booming generation and Generation Xers. They’re the folk out there that have money. Whether we like it or not, youngsters today, young adults don’t have accrued wealth. It sits in the hands of the older folk, and effectively the government are saying that pretty much everything is in scope for inheritance tax, right down to that little widget that’s holding your kitchen tap. together. That’s in scope. And we have had a situation in this country for decades where pensions have not been in scope for inheritance tax. And certainly in the last kind of, you know, 10 years or so since George Osborne’s pension freedom world, pensions have been used as an inheritance tax planning tool. And the current government have come along and said that’s simply not happening anymore. A pension has to get back to what it was there to be used for originally, which is to provide a retirement, an income in retirement when somebody stops working. So in other words, it’s like a hedge against stopping working. It cannot, from the 6th of April 2027, be used as an intergenerational wealth transfer tool. And that’s the seismic shift I’m talking about.

Bella Caridade-Ferreira

And that’s what happened really, isn’t it, in 2015, is it became a vehicle to transfer wealth between the generations, widening, you know, some would argue widening the gap between the must, the haves and have nots, right? So we’re going back to that, whether we agree. on whether that’s correct or not. But yes, it’s been 10 years of policy that we now have to fit.

Roddy Munro

Yeah. I think the issue here, Bella, is that this policy comes in at midnight in the 6th of April 2027. So kind of the analogy that I use here is standing in Westminster looking up at Big Ben, you know, on the 6th of April 27, as soon as that clock strikes midnight, you have a significantly different tax policy. And whether clients die five minutes either side of the bells there can shape the tax bills hugely. And that for me kind of leads us on to two massive problem statements that we need to address as financial planners and as an industry. And I think maybe if I just explain what these two problems are, we can then probe around that and then take the conversation in a different direction. So I think the first massive problem statement we’re now going to have to contend with here is that unused pension pots could now leave families with massive tax bills. And I am talking massive tax bills because it’s not just inheritance tax we have to worry about, Bella. It’s also income tax on the pension death benefits on deaths post 75. Now, statistically, every client will live beyond 75. Not all do, some die early, but there are statistics. Life expectancy tables tell us that folk will live beyond 75. So we’ve got the impact of double taxation on those pension funds. when we look at the size of the pensions Market out there even if I look at your data as at the end of quarter three 2025 there is you know £500bn worth of money in pensions that just sits on platforms yeah just on platforms not even the off-platform, all the life off-platform.

Bella Caridade-Ferreira

Yeah, exactly. The corporate ones. Just talk me through then. I mean, forgive my ignorance on all of this. Why do you say, well, families will be hit with massive tax bills? What’s going to cause this? Talk me through it.

Roddy Munro

Well, simply when you look at individuals or couples who are married to each other or living or cohabiting, I’ll come back to that in a minute because there’s a problem straight away. Typically in the advised space, clients are simply not spending their money. And this is the challenge that we’ve got. When you look at all the assets that a client has today, including their house, any money that’s invested in core wrappers like general investment accounts, ISAs, and then you add the value of pensions in from April 27, some of those values there are astronomical in today’s terms, Bella. But when you start to forward model the value of those assets out to expected death dates, which could be 20, 30 years away for some of the demographic we’re talking about, the numbers are eye watering. And many clients have got so much wealth today that they simply cannot spend it. And that is clearly reflected in withdrawal activity, looking at the statistics on the Quilter platform. Now, as you know, the Quilter platform is the largest retail advised platform in the market. And our data tells us that withdrawal rates are exceptionally low. And that leads into the problem of what this new tax policy gives clients, because what this new tax policy basically dictates is a choice for clients. And I kind of call it the heads, I win, tails, you lose choice. You know that magic coin where you can’t win. And it revolves around this. This tax policy gives folk a choice. Either spend your money, and you have to think about how you spend it frivolously, or you have to give it away, probably to loved ones, in other words, children. And if you don’t want to do either of those, you’re going to get hammered with tax when you die. Now, I talk about that on a single life basis. If people are married or in civil partnerships on a second death basis, because remember, we still have full spousal exemptions on inheritance tax. So if you don’t spend, if you don’t gift, you’re going to get hammered with death taxes. That’s the bottom line. Folk have now got a choice and You know, having dealt in this industry for, goodness, now 36 years, I hope you find that hard to believe, Bella.

Bella Caridade-Ferreira

I find it incredibly hard to believe.

Roddy Munro

You know, many clients who are conditioned to save struggle to spend. And equally, many people don’t want to give money away because they have the fear that they might need it one day.

Bella Caridade-Ferreira

Well, that’s the problem, isn’t it?

Roddy Munro

Yeah.

Bella Caridade-Ferreira

You don’t want to give it away because you might need it. And equally, you don’t want to spend it because you don’t, well, people will be worried about running out of money, right? If they spend too much. It’s how you find that middle ground that, yeah.

Roddy Munro

And all these things are behavioural challenges that I think as an industry. We’re going to have to deal with better for clients because the reality of people are sitting on millions and millions of pounds of assets, the chances of them running out are exceptionally low. It’s only really the cohort of clients who don’t have much wealth that need to worry about running out of money. And typically, that client cohort is probably not going to be affected by inheritance tax too much. So really, there’s some very quick rough client segmentation needed to be done around client banks. It might help also, Bella, if I shared some research that we’ve done.

Bella Caridade-Ferreira

Absolutely. Go ahead. Yes.

Roddy Munro

We’ve just conducted 30 roadshow stroke events with advisers across the UK from as far north as Aberdeen, right down to as far south as Bournemouth. So 30 events, we’ve had a thousand advisers. through our door, which is kind of record-breaking. I’ve never seen anything like this. And in some of the feedback that we got, 95% of those advisers who gave us feedback told us that they were really concerned with this policy change. Now, half of them were extremely concerned, the rest were concerned, and only 5% weren’t concerned. That’s a mind-boggling statistic. What we also gleaned there was that advisers expect two out of three of their clients will be impacted by these changes and therefore need advice. What that means, in the words of plain English Bella, is that clients’ financial plans will need to change. And that leads me on to kind of my big second problem statement, which is quite simple. As an advice industry, If we continue to do what we’ve been doing for the last 10 years, when it comes to drawing down from tax wrappers, we will actually make the problem worse for clients’ loved ones. In other words, their families, their kids.

Bella Caridade-Ferreira

Goodness me. So we will actually, if we do what we have been trained to do over the last decade or more, we’re going to make things worse. So basically this has got to be, this is a monumental shift in the way advisers have to think really.

Roddy Munro

You’re right, yes, you’re absolutely right. If those advisers are telling us that two out of three clients are affected and they’re going to need to think about their plans going forward, we have to change tact. And certainly over the last decade, in the post-Osborne era, the kind of thesis in terms of a drawdown strategy is can I use other wrappers and instruments first and consider pensions last? And that now means as we approach April 27, we’re going to have an almighty U-turn. I use the expression in Latin volt fast turnaround and we’re going to have to do things differently. And in the words of plain English, it means we are now going to have to consider drawing down from the pension first. We have to tackle the pension first, because overnight on the 6th of April, regretfully, a big pension pot becomes now the least tax efficient wrapper in our stable. Now, I just want to pause there to make a point. There’s not for one minute that I am saying are advocating that pensions are not a good vehicle to save for retirement. They are still the best vehicle because of tax relief and employer contributions. But now in a drawdown environment, when folk are considering retiring and thinking about estate planning, we have to think about that pension contract so much more differently to what we’ve done over the last 10 years or so. That’s the point I really want to draw out for your audience.

Bella Caridade-Ferreira

So, to summarise, yes, pensions are still, obviously you get employer contributions, etcetera, etcetera, tax breaks on your on accumulation, but in decumulation in drawdown, that’s where you need to start. You don’t, you don’t, you don’t start with the ISAs and everything else first, you start with the pension and try and get through that cash as quickly as possible.

Roddy Munro

Well, you certainly must consider the pension first now. And the mathematics prove that when you model the maths of it. And so much money in the platform space in pensions is still uncrystallized money. So tax-free cash is still available, PCLS being the strict parlance. And that begins to shine a new light on how we deal with tax-free cash. Now, When we strip back to basics, for affluent families, how do we avoid paying inheritance tax? And the easiest way to avoid paying inheritance tax is to die with zero. Now, technically, you would want to die with assets up to one’s available nil rate band at the time. But either of those things are virtually impossible to plan for. So therefore, we want to think about how we run down the value of certain pots. And now the question is, do you run down pension more aggressively than others? So when we start to think about tax-free cash, we’ve got to think about that differently, because there’s potentially 25%, a caveat, lifetime allowance, protection rules around that off a large pension pot that can be taken out quickly. But then what do you do with that tax-free cash? Many affluent clients don’t need it, Bella. So what we’re seeing now and what we’ve been doing modeling around is taking that tax-free cash and crystallizing it and popping it into an onshore investment bond and wrapping it into a suitable trust in order to get it out of a client’s estate after seven years.

Bella Caridade-Ferreira

So putting it into an onshore investment bond and wrapping it in a trust, that’s, yeah.

Roddy Munro

Yeah, and the trust bit is the key there because, you know, getting it into trust, you change the legal ownership of the asset and therefore it doesn’t sit in one’s estate for inheritance tax purposes, provided seven years have elapsed successfully from making that gift into the trust. Now, there are certain trusts out there in the market that can offer the settler of the trust access to capital should they need it as well. We have one called the Lifestyle Trust, but this is not the right environment to go into that. But, you know, if any of your listeners want to get in touch, please get in touch with us and we can help with that. And that is proving exceptionally popular now in the run up to 2027. But that’s just the tax-free cash piece. When we look at the rest of the pot, so the drawdown pot, 75%, as we know, that’s subject to marginal rate income tax. And if a client tries to run that pot down really quickly, well, yes, it could cause sustainability problems, but also they’ll get hammered with income tax. So an adviser needs.

Bella Caridade-Ferreira

To strike a balance, because they’re drawing down, yeah.

Roddy Munro

An adviser now needs to strike a balance between what I would say, lifetime taxes versus legacy taxes, in other words, death taxes. And, you know, it isn’t just as I’ve already said, the impact of IHT, it’s the spectre of double tax, both IHT and income tax, assuming clients die post 75. I mean, it’s horrible, Bella. This is horrible policy.

Bella Caridade-Ferreira

It is horrible. So everyone needs to die by the time they’re 74 is what you’re basically saying.

Roddy Munro

That’s what both my kids tell me. Die, you old man. Die.

Bella Caridade-Ferreira

Yeah, that’s probably what my kids think too. So obviously you’ve got some fantastic tools on platform. Do you have tools that can be used by other advisers that can model all of this, taking into account the technical, as you say, the two, the legacy taxes?

Roddy Munro

So we do, we do. Just before I talk about some of the tools that can help, one of the other things that we need to bear in mind here with bringing pensions into scope for inheritance tax is that as soon as they fall into scope and they’re added into estates, many, many more families’ children or whoever inherits the money will lose the valuable tax break around the residential mill rate band. So, you know, there was the Tories who introduced the residential nil rate band to take into account of the impact of spiraling house prices. And that’s going to be a big problem. And, you know, the residential nil rate band today is £175,000 per individual or £350,000 across married couples or civil partnerships. And if that tax break is lost, In today’s terms, that will cost a family £140,000, let alone forward modeling it for 20 years. And we ran some stats in the summer, which kind of came to the conclusion by 2030, so four years away from now, pretty much one in two people in this country will lose the residential mill rate band as a result of this tax policy. So when you add all that complexity into the mix, you can see why this is a big money spinner for the Treasury and also a way for families to lose money on cascading pretty quickly unless they get ahead of it. So yeah, we’ve been working for months and months and have just launched into the market a new piece of software called the Pension Crystallization Tool.

Bella Caridade-Ferreira

A pension crystallisation tool.

Roddy Munro

Yeah, it just rolls off the tongue, doesn’t it? does, yeah.

Bella Caridade-Ferreira

It just does what it says on the tin, really, pension crystallisation tool.

Roddy Munro

Yeah. And what it does when you say what does it do on the tin? This will model the impact of inheritance tax on estates for individuals and also married couples civil partnerships. through to estimated date of death. Sounds morbid, but we have to face the problem. And that would also take into account expected date of death on a joint life basis. What it will also do is model the impact of double tax, so the impact of pension income tax on a beneficiary where death occurs after 75. And then what the tool will do is allow an adviser to consider the financial benefit of crystallizing tax free cash and moving it into an investment and gifting it into an inheritance tax efficient trust. And by far the most suitable investment type vehicle for trust purposes is a bond. Onshore bond is probably more attractive in today’s tax environment than an offshore bond. The old myth of gross roll up and offshore is the candles beginning to flicker out there. And that’s what I was saying about trying to get that money out of the estate. But what the tool will also allow an adviser to model is the power of taking withdrawals or taking income from the pension and how this could be structured. to best maximize the overall estate value for an individual or a couple’s loved ones. In other words, probably their children or whoever leave the estate too. And again, we kind of showcased some of this at the 30 events we have run. And I have never, in all my 36 years, seen such a demand for access to that system. So, it’s hit the mark out there in the market. As far as I’m aware, we have yet to see any cash flow providers get their head around the mathematics of this.

Bella Caridade-Ferreira

We’re certainly seeing in Fundscape stats there’s a significant jump in bond flows, right? So onshore and offshore, but mainly onshore. So we’re seeing that jump in flows already. And I think from what you’re saying, post this budget, that’s going to rise even more. And then, as you say, the linking to trust, et cetera, is really important. So to a certain extent, that also creates a situation for advisers who need to think about the platforms they’re on, right? Do the platforms they’re currently on, provide them with the whole range of tools and products that they need, like the onshore bonds, et cetera, access, you know, access to trust, creating, you know, all of that needs to be considered. So it’s not just about thinking about your client’s future, but it’s also about thinking about, you know, can the platform that I’m on deliver what I need it to deliver?

Roddy Munro

Yes, you’re absolutely right. And that’s what came. back through the feedback that we had from those advisers that came through our doors in October and November. And the first thing they said was that they wanted to ensure that the pension arrangement that they used, probably on a platform, had flexible and reliable pension income capability. So in other words, that we paid people their pension income on time, every time. And, you know, Whether we like it or not, certain platforms out there where cash management has to be considered and everything sits in the hands of the advisers, monthly pension income payments get missed. So that’s really important. What they also said was they felt it was important. Three quarters of them said it was important that their platform had a fully integrated bond, just as you’ve said, because bond sales have gone parabolic. and having a wide range of trusts. So there’s no point in having a bond unless you can wrap it under the appropriate trust.

Bella Caridade-Ferreira

Unless you can wrap it in a trust. Yeah.

Roddy Munro

And then the final thing is they want to be able to on the one platform is move money between the wrappers dead easily. And that’s not just, you know, across one individual, it could be across a family. That’s the key across a family. Yeah, and one of the big features that we have is that if we hold the pension money and the advice for the client is to crystallize and drop the money into a bond, that money never has to leave our platform. It just… sits in the corporate account and then we drop it into the bond when we get the instruction from the adviser. So it saves all the issues of hundreds of thousands of pounds going back to clients and then they have to go into their bank and all that nonsense.

Bella Caridade-Ferreira

Takes all the friction out of the process, right?

Roddy Munro

It takes all the friction out, yeah.

Bella Caridade-Ferreira

So it’s really important now that advisers really think about the platform solution that they’re going to be using over the next 10, 20 years. To summarize, what would you say to an adviser? Where do they need to start right now and do?

Roddy Munro

So the most important thing I would suggest is looking at your client data. So as everything in this world nowadays, some of the answers sit within your client data. You need to identify quickly those clients that you have today who are going to be affected come April 2027. And a lot of that will sit in the data. You also need to think about forward modelling tools, about how you use cash flow to forward model to expected death dates. You also need to consider those clients who are either single, married, in civil partners or cohabiting. So the difference between a couple who cohabit and a couple who are married They do not get the interspousal IHT exemptions. So they’re treated as individual. So the first one’s around data. The second one is then around sitting in a dark room for a period of time to think all this stuff through. And that’s a challenge.

Bella Caridade-Ferreira

In a dark room. Yeah.

Roddy Munro

I have the privilege at Quilter to sit in a dark room and think all this stuff through. It’s kind of what I get.

Bella Caridade-Ferreira

They lock you in it, Roddy.

Roddy Munro

And they don’t let me out. Yes. But for an adviser, an adviser still got to run their business today. So this is the biggest change and advice I’ve seen in all my years. But an adviser’s got to keep the engine running today. So it’s kind of like getting up in a jet plane and keeping the engines going in flight whilst you create that change. And then probably the third area is getting on the front foot. with this with clients and facing into a challenging subject that is emotive. It is the most emotive subject, I think, when it comes to financial planning. And the upshot of it all is financial planning for the last nearly 20 years post great financial crisis. When you think about ISAs and general investment accounts and all the allowances we’ve had, it’s been quite easy to get good returns and returns have been strong over that period. There’s clients out there with bucket loads of wealth and they’re going to fall into these massive tax traps like lemmings unless we as an advice industry get ahead of them, encourage them to either spend it or gift it. And by gifting it, it still stays within the family, but it gets money out of the estate more quickly. In its simplest form is a conclusion, Bella. I think this is where we probably wind up. This needs to be the quickest acceleration of wealth transfer down families than we have ever seen before. Because if we don’t do it, the Treasury will.

Bella Caridade-Ferreira

We’ll take it. Yeah. Yes. So isn’t it? Yep, that is fantastic. So it needs to be the quickest transfer of wealth. So the younger generations are going to be really happy, right? Because they’re going to get the money before they, our kids, what do your kids and my kids?

Roddy Munro

Yeah, and this is, you hit an interesting point here and we could talk another half hour, I know we can’t, but I look at my kids who are 16 and 18. They don’t have the capacity really to deal with large amounts of money. Maybe in 10 years time, they might. And that’s where trusts become really important, where the settler and the trustees and things can control how money is distributed. So whilst you’re not the legal owner, the trust is, you know, the trustees have got discretion as to how benefits can be applied. Trust planning is complex and what we will probably see is the democratisation of bonds and trusts more quickly as well to achieve that outcome?

Bella Caridade-Ferreira

Well, that’s what I was going to say, because you know, we always think that trusts, et cetera, for the very wealthy, you know, the ultra-rich, the ultra-high net worth.

Roddy Munro

Yeah.

Bella Caridade-Ferreira

Yes, but really what we’re seeing is that government policy is going to create a generation of trust of variance, basically. Yes.

Roddy Munro

Yes, and you know, other perfectly harmonious ways to deal with inheritance tax, you know, gifting excess income out of normal expenditure, all these things, a very lightly used inheritance tax planning weapon. So yeah, an adviser probably needs to dust off the IHT book and get thinking. We’ve got massive change coming and we’re better getting ahead of it. If we leave this too late, it will leave client families badly off.

Bella Caridade-Ferreira

So you heard Roddy there, if we leave this too late, it will leave. client families badly off and we don’t want to do that. I certainly don’t want to leave my family badly off. So yeah, so these are important things. People can always contact you if they want more information, Roddy. This tool that you’ve got as well, is that available to everyone?

Roddy Munro

No, it’s not. We’re very, very proud of the mathematics in this tool just because of, you know, how how pensions are going to soak up proportional use of nil rate band and residential nil rate bands. So yeah, please get in touch with your usual quilter contact and we’ll have a conversation as to how we can help.

Bella Caridade-Ferreira

Okay, and if you don’t have a quilter contact, then this might be the time to get one. If you want to find out more from your D&T team, because they’re obviously doing a huge amount of work on this. So look, Roddy, that’s, thank you. That’s really, it’s absolutely fascinating. Thank you very much for your time and talking through these options. It’s scary stuff. It’s really scary. I’m sitting here, my head’s turning and I’m looking at all the, you know, unused pension pots. It will be the sort of there’s so many different things that are just crowding my mind. You need a financial adviser now, really.

Roddy Munro

100%. You need a financial adviser. Yeah, and even if a client who is holding money on a direct platform, I don’t know. Let’s just say Hargreaves Lansdown. Even if they knew what to do, they wouldn’t be able to get access to investment bonds and trusts. That is an advised.

Bella Caridade-Ferreira

That’s an advised only product. Yeah, exactly. So I think even just modest wealth, you know, you can be drawn into all these tax implications very quickly.

Roddy Munro

Yeah, I’ve written a case study and I modelled it on a lady who lives up in Aberdeen. She’s got a house worth just over half a million. She’s got a couple of hundred thousand in ISAs and she’s got a pension at 800,000 where she’d done a transfer from a final salary scheme 10 years ago. And when you look at that profile of client as that lady, single lady in her 60s, she doesn’t think she’s rich, but she’s got monumental inheritance tax problems when you forward model it out to you know, her expected death date mid-80s. And we need to get ahead of that now. So, you know, one of the things I said right at the start, this doesn’t affect the majority of the population, but actually you need to bring the bar quite low down in terms of wealth today. Think about this. So the easiest way, barometer in my mind, is if client has, you know, wealth today of somewhere between half a million and three quarters of a million pounds, they’re in scope. They’re in scope for a conversation.

Bella Caridade-Ferreira

So anyone that’s got as low as 500,000. And when we say as low, I mean, it’s, if you’re a baby boomer and you had a defined benefit pension, then the chances are you’re going to have that kind of wealth.

Roddy Munro

You absolutely are. We remember some of the transfer values that we saw during that period and asset growth thereafter. For many, many people, their pension will be three or four times the value of their house. It’s a monumental problem. From an adviser’s perspective, This is a brilliant time to be a financial adviser. And now we really get as an industry to demonstrate the value that we bring, never more than before. So I don’t want anybody to think this storyboard is doom and gloom. This is brilliant for advisers. Brilliant.

Bella Caridade-Ferreira

Oh, I mean, anyone who decides to embark on a career in financial advice today is going to be kept busy for a very long time. I think that’s right. It’s absolutely a great career to go into. And to a certain extent, it’s not just by, you know, a lot of people are put off by the idea of financial advice, but it’s life coaching, isn’t it? That’s what you’re really doing. You’re helping your clients achieve their goals now and right through to death and beyond, basically.

Roddy Munro

Yeah, and managing how to harness this behavioural piece. So around this spend or give away, that is so big. Behavioural and advisers are going to have to think how they tackle that bit over and above just the numbers.

Bella Caridade-Ferreira

Yeah, that’s the whole behavioural bit is really important. That’s exactly, you know, why I was talking about the life coaching bit. But yes, it’s fascinating stuff. Roddy, thank you for giving up so much of your time to talk to me. I really, really appreciate it. It’s great to have your technical expertise on here. I’m going to tell people that they can contact you for any queries or Quilter, they’re Quilter representatives and they can find out how to get on the Quilter platform and benefit from your wonderful technical advice. Roddy, thank you so much. It’s a pleasure. And we will speak again soon.